I find the article pretty amusing because I think it is the other way around.
Americans have the highest level of trust in and expectations for institutions. Chinese have the lowest.
In collective cultures, large groups dominate the power landscape, and these large groups usually control the large institutions, like legal, police, etc. We call it corruption here but in China the manipulation of institutions by large groups is just a way of life.
Business in China cannot rely on legal contracts to enforce partnerships or trade agreements because the legal institution can be manipulated by large groups.
That’s why the culture of doing business in China is to get each other super drunk, it’s both a vibe check and a way to loosen your tongue and see who you really are.
If you get into a partnership and the other person steals your business, in the US you can sue for damages and you will generally be rewarded. In China you will be laughed at, because likely your partner has protection from larger groups and can’t be touched.
In China there is no trust in institutional power. There is however a strong trust in those who wields the power. This is Confucianism, where filial piety as a moral value (duty to one’s parents) extends from subject to ruler as well.
So yes Chinese generally trust their ruling party, but not institutions.
But it is also more complicated than that. There is a reason why rich Chinese people want to take their money out of China - become too rich and all of a sudden you are a threat to the ruling party. And there is no legal protection, the ruling party can actually use the legal system to get you. That’s what happened to Jack Ma. He was too naive and didn’t realize that his individual protections and right to his money was afforded by western protections which do not exist in China.
Americans hate the government because they believe (subconsciously with moral conviction) that protection of individuality is the governments responsibility and infringement upon individuality is immoral and wrong. It’s why forcing masks during covid has such a backlash, it was viewed as an infringement of individual freedoms.
China has a rich weave of Confucian, Daoism, and Buddhism. Acceptance is a very daoist outlook,and acceptance of authority is a very Confucian outlook. They are quite different. But yes accepting how things are is a major theme of Chinese culture. A lot of “why fight to be in power when the people in power fight to feed you”? Also a lot of “play your role in society to be happy” (as opposed to America’s climb the ladder to be happy).
Play your role is by no means easy though. If you are a woman, you better be married and popping out kids by 25! If you are a grandma, you need to be nagging at the next generation while cutting fruit for them! And if you are a kid, study! Dont choose anything for yourself, let your parents choose for you!
All of this is true, and I'm trying to think about how this low trust in institutions can coexist with this trust in the authority. And I think what you're referring to is the rule of law, hence the creation of special economic zones where investments are protected/repatriation of capital/more trustworthy legal system modeled after the West.
And perhaps there is something to do with scale. In the US, when something big happens is when you can actually rely on the institution.
Your article reminded me of a conversation I had with someone living in China.
I asked him, how is it that you can work 6 days a week from 10am-10pm and not feel a need to complain?
I simply couldn’t comprehend… and yet here in my not-so-distant part of the world in Singapore people are starting to talk about boundaries and feeling unhappy about overtime work.
He talked about acceptance and that this is just the way of life.
But the interesting thing I took away from the convo is that acceptance is not merely saying “it is what it is”. It is acceptance but with the commitment to still give 100% to work when the occasion calls.
It’s not exactly the same as contentment which sometimes carries a notion that the status quo is acceptable. It’s contentment but mixed with optimism and determination.
The idea of 人家 is similar, as you pointed out. That you can be aware that others have it better but not let it get you down.
I love the nuances in your article and would love to visit you in China one day! ✨
I love this. This makes me think, and I recall similar sentiments where this optimism isn’t just positive self talk, it’s this 看得开(and I have a hard time translating this into English).
It isn’t ignorance either. They know fully well what they’ve signed up for and can articulate very well what others have, but it’s okay.
And let me know if you visit!! Would be nice to meet you 😊
This line, "This passive acceptance, perhaps, is an active choice," really made me stop and think. I also find your observation about living in/for the current generation vs. for the future generations very interesting; makes me curious how much/if class impacts that mentality & capability in both the US & China. And so sorry to hear you didn't get to tell your grandpa goodbye 🫂
Thank you for reading. It's funny that as I wrote that line, it was the first time that thought came to mind - true writing helps reach clarity in the thoughts.
And interesting, so in a way class reinforces the concept of investing in future generations. and I wonder what it's like in countries where class is more apparent.
this is brilliant coco, turning into words something that i've always thought about but never could quite articulate. it's well-known and well-document as to how different the western mindset (individual achievement, everyone has got it in them to be excellent, ACAB, be in the present and discover your purpose) and eastern mindset (always society first, some people are just different, government has our best interests at heart, i'm not fussed with finding purpose i'm trying to earn money for my children) -- though it's not often that I see written this way, with an admittance that the eastern mindset can be a bit dismal and hierarchical and submissive, but painted in such a soft and accepting light. there are perks of both. there are stains of both. i'm an asian who's slowly adopting bits and pieces of the western mindset that make more sense to me and likewise i'm sure there's a western person who's cherrypicking bits of the eastern mindset that fits them - so long as we build our own unique moral compass and sense of optimism, I think that's more than ok :) thanks for sharing coco
disclaimer: i realise the 'build our own unique moral compass' is very much a western thing though LOL
I figured it much of this independently. Not figured it out as an oppressive state, which is what I was taught, but as a needed truth. We don’t get to be in charge of our own societies, nor are we all a society of one. Hierarchy is not a choice, ever. You have to deal with it, one way or another, and eventually it’s in your best interest to adapt to one.
Yes, this is true. I think people accept as reality and adapt. And I wonder, in individualism there is more of a perceived choice, so when it fails it is a bit more stressful.
I don’t know if individualism is just more stressful, or if the idea creates expectations that make people angry. Either way, there’s a dishonesty to it that’s not good.
This is what it feels like to stand at the threshold. This, this, this. While our heritage continues to be passed along as trend during this year’s festivities in the west, they will never understand the paradox of their individualism fueling their consumption of our culture. Thank you for writing this piece.
Damn, the way you sit in the cognitive dissonance of both identities and views is incredible. I found the difference in where trust is placed (in self vs authority) super fascinating. I wonder if which, if any, countries model a hybrid of the two?
Very interesting discussion. This issue also bothers me as I want to belong to both countries but cannot, officially. However this issue has a lot more historical and political context beyond the China-U.S. relationship. After 1949 by not allowing dual citizenship, China could make friends with a number of Southeastern countries much more easily. For a number of governments it would have been a nightmare if overnight half of their citizens had also become Chinese citizens (because they were Chinese emigrants). Thinking of this issue, the statistician me also asked this question: How many countries in the world allow conditional dual citizenship - that is, allowing their citizens to be citizens of another country but this other country can only be one of the countries approved by their first citizenship country. I looked it up. There are very few countries that allow conditional dual citizenship. If the Chinese government has made the rule that their citizens cannot be citizens of another Southeastern country, then most likely they won't allow their citizens to be citizens of any other country. I hope this can change but I think the chance is very small.
Really interesting. Did not know about the historical context - just looked it up as well and thank you for noting this. Economically, China has an interest of opening up on this policy, but geopolitically, the chance is slim. Hope there is a way to feel belong in both countries. And I see that you're a tea enthusiast! - look forward to what you'll write about.
Really fascinating. I've always wondered about Chinese culture. I think it makes sense given the country's high population density, everyone has to do their part or everyone will be fighting all the time (and when things fall apart in China a LOT of people die, see Taiping rebelllion). Americans had to spread out to colonize the continent so doing your own thing and taking risks was a much bigger thing. Whether we can stay that way remains to be seen...
The intergenerational agency point at the end is the most interesting thing here. It's not that agency is absent, it's just pointed at a different timeline. American individualism invests in the present self. The Chinese version invests in the next generation. Both are forms of hope.
The 人家 footnote deserves its own essay. English has no neutral register for that kind of admiration. It always comes out sounding either self-deprecating or gracious when really it's neither.
The best observations tend to arrive mid-sentence like that. And yes, grew up with it as a first language actually, though English took over once school started. My Chinese has deteriorated more than I'd like though, and there's something particular about a language you dreamed in as a child and now reach for with a slight delay.
Love the "language you dreamed in as a child and now reach for" - I also grew up with Chinese, and despite spending most of life in English, writing analytically and all, I realize that many emotions I can only express emotions in Chinese.
Where the West defused rhetoric by making governance boring, China monopolized it. The state claimed political speech, and the public was left to own its entertainment. There is no public dissent, but nor is there any unmarked state attempt at entertainment.
I think it's all a lot simpler than this. Life outside work just isn't that good. China is really dull. If you weren't at work 12 hours a day, you wouldn't be out viewing interesting art and cooking good food and partying with friends. You'd be vegging at home. And there's still a sense of shame here (I live in China), so that's not very attractive.
Give it time. As China continues to evolve, all this will change.
Those things certainly exist, but good food often requires queueing or is expensive; art is much rarer here than in your average US/UK town. For example, live music: little local bands are rarer, you don't get to hear live music just by going to your local bar, as you might elsewhere. I think there's only one theatre in my city of about 5 million people (Xiamen). It's a tourist town, and they're trying hard to build up the leisure industry, but they haven't yet managed to create a nice beach with a cafe next to it, where you can properly enjoy an afternoon out. Wait, no, I lie - there is one. Just one for the city.
I used to work for Huawei, and though they didn't quite do the free-buffet-and-rec-rooms culture of Silicon Valley, it was striking how nice the offices were. Great climate control, nice cafeterias and coffee shops dotted around, exercise facilities, plus social clubs for those who could take the time... for a lot of people, it would be nicer being at work than at home.
Of course, not everyone gets to work at the tech giants. But if you don't, then your income is lower, so your apartment is smaller and even less attractive...
It's just always useful to be skeptical of cultural explanations. A key experience of mine was living here during the early years of Amazon. Amazon was trying to break into China, and failed (mostly due to market protectionism). I talked to dozens and dozens of people who told me Amazon couldn't succeed in China because Chinese shoppers are culturally inclined to talk to vendors. They don't want anonymous online transactions... fast forward 20 years, and China is the world's no. 1 online shopper. It turned out there wasn't anything cultural about the rejection of Amazon, it was just industrial policy.
Similarly, the killer work culture here is probably not cultural or spiritual, but the result of the (engineered) extreme competition in the labour market.
I think! Of course, I'm no expert, so take this as one person's opinion only.
My family is Cantonese and I was born and grew up in Vietnam. I came to the US for college and then pretty much stay here for my whole adult life.
Even to this day, I find myself constantly in tension between these two opposing cultures/mindsets. And your article really resonates.
I recently got reminded of an old concept of 天地人 (sky/heaven, ground/place, and person). The first represents timing. Second represents the place we're in. And the last represents our own self. It's said that to succeed, of course we must have the skills and wills ourselves, but it must be at the right time and place - two of which we often don't have control over. And I find that the West has been over indexing on the self. Whereas, ordinary people in the East might have gone over on the "there's nothing ourselves can do".
Maybe the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. Or maybe because we don't know the time and place we're in, so we need to work hard on the self anyway -just in case things take off. Or maybe, like that lady in the interview, we'll just accept our faith and channel our energy for our next generation.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. Interesting, the idea that in the West, people do not naturally index the 天 & 地.
On that note, I recommend this book: Founder's Notes by JiQi - he opens and frames his entire biography around the idea of 天地人 - except he refers to them as the spiritual, the material, and relationships.
I thought it was really interesting that a business story written by a Chinese takes these factors into consideration.
Thank you for reading! I wonder if there is an incentive/need for a shift. For example, in the case of entreprenurship, instead of building in spite of the gov, in China the practice is to build with gov support. So unless the political environment shifts, the mindset may not shift? What do you think?
I think the multi-generational thinking in China (and other cultures) versus the U.S, which has a very much "this is the present" mentality. I've also seen in friends the collective pressure of trying to exceed your parents' life because of all what they've done for you (this is also a very Latin American cultural thing), and I just don't see it as often in friends born and raised in the U.S. So a few of these things I've perceived, but you summed them up quite nicely.
I find the article pretty amusing because I think it is the other way around.
Americans have the highest level of trust in and expectations for institutions. Chinese have the lowest.
In collective cultures, large groups dominate the power landscape, and these large groups usually control the large institutions, like legal, police, etc. We call it corruption here but in China the manipulation of institutions by large groups is just a way of life.
Business in China cannot rely on legal contracts to enforce partnerships or trade agreements because the legal institution can be manipulated by large groups.
That’s why the culture of doing business in China is to get each other super drunk, it’s both a vibe check and a way to loosen your tongue and see who you really are.
If you get into a partnership and the other person steals your business, in the US you can sue for damages and you will generally be rewarded. In China you will be laughed at, because likely your partner has protection from larger groups and can’t be touched.
In China there is no trust in institutional power. There is however a strong trust in those who wields the power. This is Confucianism, where filial piety as a moral value (duty to one’s parents) extends from subject to ruler as well.
So yes Chinese generally trust their ruling party, but not institutions.
But it is also more complicated than that. There is a reason why rich Chinese people want to take their money out of China - become too rich and all of a sudden you are a threat to the ruling party. And there is no legal protection, the ruling party can actually use the legal system to get you. That’s what happened to Jack Ma. He was too naive and didn’t realize that his individual protections and right to his money was afforded by western protections which do not exist in China.
Americans hate the government because they believe (subconsciously with moral conviction) that protection of individuality is the governments responsibility and infringement upon individuality is immoral and wrong. It’s why forcing masks during covid has such a backlash, it was viewed as an infringement of individual freedoms.
China has a rich weave of Confucian, Daoism, and Buddhism. Acceptance is a very daoist outlook,and acceptance of authority is a very Confucian outlook. They are quite different. But yes accepting how things are is a major theme of Chinese culture. A lot of “why fight to be in power when the people in power fight to feed you”? Also a lot of “play your role in society to be happy” (as opposed to America’s climb the ladder to be happy).
Play your role is by no means easy though. If you are a woman, you better be married and popping out kids by 25! If you are a grandma, you need to be nagging at the next generation while cutting fruit for them! And if you are a kid, study! Dont choose anything for yourself, let your parents choose for you!
All of this is true, and I'm trying to think about how this low trust in institutions can coexist with this trust in the authority. And I think what you're referring to is the rule of law, hence the creation of special economic zones where investments are protected/repatriation of capital/more trustworthy legal system modeled after the West.
And perhaps there is something to do with scale. In the US, when something big happens is when you can actually rely on the institution.
Your article reminded me of a conversation I had with someone living in China.
I asked him, how is it that you can work 6 days a week from 10am-10pm and not feel a need to complain?
I simply couldn’t comprehend… and yet here in my not-so-distant part of the world in Singapore people are starting to talk about boundaries and feeling unhappy about overtime work.
He talked about acceptance and that this is just the way of life.
But the interesting thing I took away from the convo is that acceptance is not merely saying “it is what it is”. It is acceptance but with the commitment to still give 100% to work when the occasion calls.
It’s not exactly the same as contentment which sometimes carries a notion that the status quo is acceptable. It’s contentment but mixed with optimism and determination.
The idea of 人家 is similar, as you pointed out. That you can be aware that others have it better but not let it get you down.
I love the nuances in your article and would love to visit you in China one day! ✨
I love this. This makes me think, and I recall similar sentiments where this optimism isn’t just positive self talk, it’s this 看得开(and I have a hard time translating this into English).
It isn’t ignorance either. They know fully well what they’ve signed up for and can articulate very well what others have, but it’s okay.
And let me know if you visit!! Would be nice to meet you 😊
This line, "This passive acceptance, perhaps, is an active choice," really made me stop and think. I also find your observation about living in/for the current generation vs. for the future generations very interesting; makes me curious how much/if class impacts that mentality & capability in both the US & China. And so sorry to hear you didn't get to tell your grandpa goodbye 🫂
Thank you for reading. It's funny that as I wrote that line, it was the first time that thought came to mind - true writing helps reach clarity in the thoughts.
And interesting, so in a way class reinforces the concept of investing in future generations. and I wonder what it's like in countries where class is more apparent.
this is brilliant coco, turning into words something that i've always thought about but never could quite articulate. it's well-known and well-document as to how different the western mindset (individual achievement, everyone has got it in them to be excellent, ACAB, be in the present and discover your purpose) and eastern mindset (always society first, some people are just different, government has our best interests at heart, i'm not fussed with finding purpose i'm trying to earn money for my children) -- though it's not often that I see written this way, with an admittance that the eastern mindset can be a bit dismal and hierarchical and submissive, but painted in such a soft and accepting light. there are perks of both. there are stains of both. i'm an asian who's slowly adopting bits and pieces of the western mindset that make more sense to me and likewise i'm sure there's a western person who's cherrypicking bits of the eastern mindset that fits them - so long as we build our own unique moral compass and sense of optimism, I think that's more than ok :) thanks for sharing coco
disclaimer: i realise the 'build our own unique moral compass' is very much a western thing though LOL
thanks so much for this thoughtful comment, it means a lot. and I agree, picking bits from eastern and western mindsets that fuel our optimism, is ok.
I like to use the term "north star", not quite like moral compass, but no idea if that's a chinese thing or english thing anymore haha.
I figured it much of this independently. Not figured it out as an oppressive state, which is what I was taught, but as a needed truth. We don’t get to be in charge of our own societies, nor are we all a society of one. Hierarchy is not a choice, ever. You have to deal with it, one way or another, and eventually it’s in your best interest to adapt to one.
Yes, this is true. I think people accept as reality and adapt. And I wonder, in individualism there is more of a perceived choice, so when it fails it is a bit more stressful.
I don’t know if individualism is just more stressful, or if the idea creates expectations that make people angry. Either way, there’s a dishonesty to it that’s not good.
This is what it feels like to stand at the threshold. This, this, this. While our heritage continues to be passed along as trend during this year’s festivities in the west, they will never understand the paradox of their individualism fueling their consumption of our culture. Thank you for writing this piece.
Thank you so much for this. 💌
Damn, the way you sit in the cognitive dissonance of both identities and views is incredible. I found the difference in where trust is placed (in self vs authority) super fascinating. I wonder if which, if any, countries model a hybrid of the two?
Thank you!! and I wonder! but don’t know deeply about another culture to really tell, or maybe many are somewhere in between?
Very interesting discussion. This issue also bothers me as I want to belong to both countries but cannot, officially. However this issue has a lot more historical and political context beyond the China-U.S. relationship. After 1949 by not allowing dual citizenship, China could make friends with a number of Southeastern countries much more easily. For a number of governments it would have been a nightmare if overnight half of their citizens had also become Chinese citizens (because they were Chinese emigrants). Thinking of this issue, the statistician me also asked this question: How many countries in the world allow conditional dual citizenship - that is, allowing their citizens to be citizens of another country but this other country can only be one of the countries approved by their first citizenship country. I looked it up. There are very few countries that allow conditional dual citizenship. If the Chinese government has made the rule that their citizens cannot be citizens of another Southeastern country, then most likely they won't allow their citizens to be citizens of any other country. I hope this can change but I think the chance is very small.
Really interesting. Did not know about the historical context - just looked it up as well and thank you for noting this. Economically, China has an interest of opening up on this policy, but geopolitically, the chance is slim. Hope there is a way to feel belong in both countries. And I see that you're a tea enthusiast! - look forward to what you'll write about.
Really fascinating. I've always wondered about Chinese culture. I think it makes sense given the country's high population density, everyone has to do their part or everyone will be fighting all the time (and when things fall apart in China a LOT of people die, see Taiping rebelllion). Americans had to spread out to colonize the continent so doing your own thing and taking risks was a much bigger thing. Whether we can stay that way remains to be seen...
Thank you for reading! Yes, population density, history, a lot of factors that shape the current system that works.
The intergenerational agency point at the end is the most interesting thing here. It's not that agency is absent, it's just pointed at a different timeline. American individualism invests in the present self. The Chinese version invests in the next generation. Both are forms of hope.
The 人家 footnote deserves its own essay. English has no neutral register for that kind of admiration. It always comes out sounding either self-deprecating or gracious when really it's neither.
Thank you for reading! I came up with that idea of intergenerational agency as I was writing those lines and surprised myself, but it feels so true.
And it sounds like you also speak Chinese 🙂
The best observations tend to arrive mid-sentence like that. And yes, grew up with it as a first language actually, though English took over once school started. My Chinese has deteriorated more than I'd like though, and there's something particular about a language you dreamed in as a child and now reach for with a slight delay.
Love the "language you dreamed in as a child and now reach for" - I also grew up with Chinese, and despite spending most of life in English, writing analytically and all, I realize that many emotions I can only express emotions in Chinese.
Where the West defused rhetoric by making governance boring, China monopolized it. The state claimed political speech, and the public was left to own its entertainment. There is no public dissent, but nor is there any unmarked state attempt at entertainment.
https://nathankyoung.substack.com/p/notes-on-the-cultural-revolution?r=2kp7ol
I love this
Thank you :)
I think it's all a lot simpler than this. Life outside work just isn't that good. China is really dull. If you weren't at work 12 hours a day, you wouldn't be out viewing interesting art and cooking good food and partying with friends. You'd be vegging at home. And there's still a sense of shame here (I live in China), so that's not very attractive.
Give it time. As China continues to evolve, all this will change.
interesting! I thought there is art & good food. curious to hear more from your experience.
Those things certainly exist, but good food often requires queueing or is expensive; art is much rarer here than in your average US/UK town. For example, live music: little local bands are rarer, you don't get to hear live music just by going to your local bar, as you might elsewhere. I think there's only one theatre in my city of about 5 million people (Xiamen). It's a tourist town, and they're trying hard to build up the leisure industry, but they haven't yet managed to create a nice beach with a cafe next to it, where you can properly enjoy an afternoon out. Wait, no, I lie - there is one. Just one for the city.
I used to work for Huawei, and though they didn't quite do the free-buffet-and-rec-rooms culture of Silicon Valley, it was striking how nice the offices were. Great climate control, nice cafeterias and coffee shops dotted around, exercise facilities, plus social clubs for those who could take the time... for a lot of people, it would be nicer being at work than at home.
Of course, not everyone gets to work at the tech giants. But if you don't, then your income is lower, so your apartment is smaller and even less attractive...
It's just always useful to be skeptical of cultural explanations. A key experience of mine was living here during the early years of Amazon. Amazon was trying to break into China, and failed (mostly due to market protectionism). I talked to dozens and dozens of people who told me Amazon couldn't succeed in China because Chinese shoppers are culturally inclined to talk to vendors. They don't want anonymous online transactions... fast forward 20 years, and China is the world's no. 1 online shopper. It turned out there wasn't anything cultural about the rejection of Amazon, it was just industrial policy.
Similarly, the killer work culture here is probably not cultural or spiritual, but the result of the (engineered) extreme competition in the labour market.
I think! Of course, I'm no expert, so take this as one person's opinion only.
My family is Cantonese and I was born and grew up in Vietnam. I came to the US for college and then pretty much stay here for my whole adult life.
Even to this day, I find myself constantly in tension between these two opposing cultures/mindsets. And your article really resonates.
I recently got reminded of an old concept of 天地人 (sky/heaven, ground/place, and person). The first represents timing. Second represents the place we're in. And the last represents our own self. It's said that to succeed, of course we must have the skills and wills ourselves, but it must be at the right time and place - two of which we often don't have control over. And I find that the West has been over indexing on the self. Whereas, ordinary people in the East might have gone over on the "there's nothing ourselves can do".
Maybe the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. Or maybe because we don't know the time and place we're in, so we need to work hard on the self anyway -just in case things take off. Or maybe, like that lady in the interview, we'll just accept our faith and channel our energy for our next generation.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. Interesting, the idea that in the West, people do not naturally index the 天 & 地.
On that note, I recommend this book: Founder's Notes by JiQi - he opens and frames his entire biography around the idea of 天地人 - except he refers to them as the spiritual, the material, and relationships.
I thought it was really interesting that a business story written by a Chinese takes these factors into consideration.
Helpful framing of the cultural mindset in China. Do you see any shifting of that mindset as the 1 child generation matures?
Thank you for reading! I wonder if there is an incentive/need for a shift. For example, in the case of entreprenurship, instead of building in spite of the gov, in China the practice is to build with gov support. So unless the political environment shifts, the mindset may not shift? What do you think?
I suspect a socioeconomic breakdown would be helpful in determining mindset.
This was brilliant. You’ve added language to some things I’ve seen but was not able to name until you wrote about them here. Great perspective
Thanks for reading!! I’m curious - what are some of the things you’ve seen?
I think the multi-generational thinking in China (and other cultures) versus the U.S, which has a very much "this is the present" mentality. I've also seen in friends the collective pressure of trying to exceed your parents' life because of all what they've done for you (this is also a very Latin American cultural thing), and I just don't see it as often in friends born and raised in the U.S. So a few of these things I've perceived, but you summed them up quite nicely.
Interesting note on Latin American culture, the US seems to be on its own. and thank you :)
Yes!!! I agree with Camilo.